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 Post subject: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2008 01:16 
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Pea Nut

Joined: 26 Nov 2008 00:50
Posts: 49
As the topic implies..

This is probably the best place to ask, forget the other isps, multiplays lazytown is the best with the Nutters and other regulars and the admins *cough*

Ever since this time last year when we released this current version, i've been trying to think of ways of improving it, even have 4-5 different layouts with different routes ect already 50% done in hammer.....BUT...I still can not see how it can be improved without changing the basic game play. I know Zeta tried with his new *cough*jolt*cough* sponsored version, but its not that great, and non to pretty.

So we're left with make over:

-Start from scratch with exact same layout
-Improve fps( please remember this current version i only had a de-compiled version of a de-compiled version ;) )
-Pretty it up, with correct texturing and detailing, more tf2'ish

There are problems with layout, but that is what makes the map. i.e point two and spawn, sniper heaven, other people have tried changing this and it doesn't work, and TBH i think it does works as is, alternate routes, mainly point two to three, again been tried and it kills the spirit of the game and the whole reason for us being there and enjoying the map.

So, i'm not really looking for ideas, just want to know whether you guys think it would be a good idea to do a make over, keeping things as there are?

All depends on my time after xmas, hopefully will have more of it to do more mapping and getting back to being a proper admin ;)


Last edited by larky on 26 Nov 2008 14:45, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2008 03:31 
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Whole Nut
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008 13:45
Posts: 866
Location: Leeds
I have several spare servers at the moment Larky as I'm sure you'll know. We tried 'Busytown' but it's just not the same. :( It's ironic that lazytown was probably the very first custom map on the TF2 scene and the one that's been most enduring.

If you'd like to see a lazytown II post your suggestions here, Larky is the man responsible for the fixes used in the current Lazytown we have right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2008 23:46 
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(>Nutter<)
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Joined: 28 Oct 2008 11:07
Posts: 1695
How do you improve on perfection... there's so much you could change but I agree that anything that improves fps can't do any harm at all.. even a change of textures would be pretty cool in itself... I've discussed this with some of the other Nutters and given the obvious popularity of Lazy F we're considering hiring a server off MultiPlay for 3 months to begin with... Personally I'd prefer the map to remain as is but as far as a makeover goes it would be VERY nice to run Lazytown N ;) (Nutters) with a lick of paint Nutter style ie something a little edgy/crazy... There's enough interest to cover cost... but we'd be looking at after the Xmas Massacre, poss Jan 09 before renting the server. Give u plenty of time to work on a mod and test it for real when we hire the server too... mull it over anyway. I guess there's nothing stopping you building a mod for the massacre night... but u only got 2 weeks... be an ideal test environment though ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008 05:14 
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Whole Nut
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008 13:45
Posts: 866
Location: Leeds
At the risk of getting shot for not persuading you to hire your own server, you pretty much have your own server currently. That is totally the wrong thing for me to say as I should be helping Multiplay to sell servers, that's why the publics are there, to encourage people to rent servers.

Now I'm not going to say don't do it, it's entirely your choice and I'm sure that Multiplay would love the custom. What I would say is that I and most of my admins have to remain dedicated to the publics and not spend hours of our time playing on a private server.

Server #07 has become what it is because it's the same old faces that frequent it. If you were to attempt to run a similar server then there's the possibility that you'll either empty mine or yours will never populate and you've wasted good money on nothing.

I'm not saying this as a threat, if you want to try then by all means go for it, it's more business for Multiplay and ultimately why I'm here running the public servers. Jolt have tried various incarnations of lazytown and still not got it right, ours is the one that works and along with the reserved slots I think it's hard to improve it further.

Lazytown is an entity of its own, it's a map that self-populates because people know where it is and the characters they meet on it. The only reason I don't have a 2nd server running this map is because I once tried it and the split in the people playing ultimately killed #07.

Anyway, I'll shut-up and leave you to decide.

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008 08:05 
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Joined: 02 Nov 2008 23:31
Posts: 22
in the style of Smashey and Nicey:

'wise words, mate'

and as the saying goes, 'if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it'


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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008 09:31 
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No Nut

Joined: 01 Nov 2008 10:34
Posts: 15
would like to be able to build teleport entrance in side the spawn point by the medi cabs like you can in gtogamings Lazytown. It gets really boring having to go back and build them every time a spie pays them a visit.


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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008 19:43 
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No Nut

Joined: 31 Oct 2008 13:00
Posts: 11
Quote:
would like to be able to build teleport entrance in side the spawn point by the medi cabs like you can in gtogamings Lazytown. It gets really boring having to go back and build them every time a spie pays them a visit.
Because Lazy has fixed spawn points, both defence and especially attack are reliant teleporters to get them into the fight.
Teleporters are a prime target for spies if the other team has advanced to point 3 or further, taking out the exits is all well and good, but unless you get the engys, the exits will be back up and running again in a matter of seconds.

Taking out the entrances slows down the whole team and the engys have to make a choice, either stay and defend their gear on point 3 since they know there's a spy running around, or run back to the spawn and put up their entrances again, this can create a nice window of opportunity for the losing team to push forward.

Taking down the entrances as it is, isn't the easiest thing in the world, getting from 1 point to the other is a trek and a 1/2 and since you can't actually get to the entrances you have to shoot them and each take 4 shots to kill, with the quick respawn time, it's fairly risky to say the least.

Long story short, I'm against the idea ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008 21:38 
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(>Nutter<)
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Joined: 14 Oct 2008 23:19
Posts: 4060
Location: Txting in spawn til we lose the cap.
Parva, if we did have another server, we would want you admin on that too! and would never want you to feel its not your server. You would have two servers mate :) Of course you cant split yourself in two, but as u are clever u will work out a solution.

Larky, didnt realise u was a mapper mate, as well as being an airline pilot? Present map is cool, but what about stopping the artillery? Somthing to stop demos lobbing onto cap two from roof? (I hate demos). Parva has been naughty too doing this!! grrr.

Dr Swim I read your post and did agree with it as i read it (from a defensive perspective), but anything that breaks a stalemate is good like 707 suggests, and spys do that (from an offensive perspective) so I now think dont change it.

Lazytown nite isnt too bad either, I feel the howling does give it some "atmosphere" that perhaps our daytime one does not? I think it would be cool if i could get through the fence and stroke that cow?

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2008 02:50 
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Whole Nut
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008 13:45
Posts: 866
Location: Leeds
Hey Daz, I can swear that I have NEVER used that over the roof exploit! I dunno where you think you've seen me use it but I can promise you I haven't. I have to kick and ultimately ban for that exploit and as the boss I have to be whiter than white, if anyone caught me doing that and I was kicking people for doing the same I'd never live it down and ultimately have to step down from my post. Many times I have been piped in cap 2 and died and the freeze-cam shows the demo on cap 3 and I've thought 'Is he piping over the roof?' and 99% of the time they haven't been. It's just in the time taken between death and the freeze-cam they've moved and it looks odd.

Thanks for the offer of having admin on your server (if you got one) but you miss the point I was making. I play TF2 (and run it voluntarilly, I am not paid) because I like it a lot. I particularly love #07 because of the excellent bunch of people that play there, it's a delight being part of such a fun community. I (and I hope all of my admin team) are admins because we love to play the game. The admin duties are secondary to the main point which is simply to be able to have a good game without numpties ruining it.

Having said that, as an admin with 20 TF2 publics (not to mention pickups and TFC servers) I have to promote my servers as best as possible to persuade people to rent servers from Multiplay. If you were to set up a private server in direct competition then it's possible that you may empty mine or yours may remain dead, either scenario isn't good for one of us and if mine were emptied then I would have to concentrate on rebuilding mine rather than working on yours. Or (as I found from trying a 2nd lazytown server) the field gets watered down and both die.

You can see the boat I am in here, I should be encouraging you to purchase a server from Multiplay to be honest, that's why my publics are there. Something else worth noting, my lazytown only populates at teatime till ~midnight, it's dead the rest of the time and it only populates because the same faces know that if they sit on it at those times it will fill. #07 has remained on the same map since day one of TF2 so is obviously in many peoples favourites, it takes a long time to get to that stage. I'm not paying for the server so therefore don't mind it being dead all day long, that may be different if I were using my cash.

And finally, if you would like some admin control then I am prepared to look at that. It wouldn't go as far as the ability to ban but you could certainly slay and kick anyone misbehaving. Fortunately a rarity in my experience of #07. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2008 02:58 
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Whole Nut
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008 13:45
Posts: 866
Location: Leeds
And furthermore, I agree that the teles should remain 'exposed' at spawn. The original version of this map meant that you couldn't even get to respawn (not to mention the TP bugs) but a spy getting past the enemy at cap 3 and disabling the TP's is essential in turning a losing teams fortunes. I really can't see how this map can be modified to balance things further.

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2008 01:09 
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(>Nutter<)
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Joined: 14 Oct 2008 23:19
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Location: Txting in spawn til we lose the cap.
Er ok, that s pretty crystal now Parva :)

And more importantly, Grats on the Number two in the stas m8. Torn seems unreachable though.

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2008 02:24 
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Joined: 26 Nov 2008 00:50
Posts: 49
whooo there steady on, back to OP..

Started lazy from scratch today, so plan is to try for an alternate map for massacre night, even if its dev textures, just to try an idea ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2008 16:58 
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I totally agree that Lazytown should remain as is. Apart from the spamming over roof from 3 to 4 which I think is still debatable... given that when Zeta designed the map he could have easily cured this obvious 'exploit' (if it is one). It seems a little inconsistent that you're allowed to rocket or sticky jump onto the roof at CP3 and the various fans but you cant fire over a low roof into CP4 ...and why is the roof between 3 and 4 so much lower than all the others? ..see what I mean? It takes skill to get on the roof in the first place and takes skill to get pipes over into CP4 too and your ammo is limited. Invariably the only people you hit when spamming over the roof (speaking from kicked experience) is the snipers camping with their backs on the fence (and we all know what whiners they are) :D. So... unless Zeta says otherwise, I believe spamming from CP3 roof into CP4 is allowed ...otherwise fix the map so it can't be done and put an end to it. Seems a little draconian to kick someone (not necessarily Multiplay btw) for using their initiative and skill as it's not as if they're shooting through a closed wall or using any kind of hack. Viva la revolution!!!

PS. n1 Parva btw for an unbiased, fair and consistent standpoint. ...if not clouded :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2008 11:10 
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(>Nutter<)
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...just to add that when I said I'd prefer Lazytown to stay as is I meant in terms of the model/map structure... but I don't think changing the textures/colours etc... would do any harm at all. ..and Parva I'm only pulling your leg (above).. it's a tough call either way. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Lazy makeover?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2008 21:58 
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Joined: 08 Nov 2008 02:51
Posts: 7
The only thing I can come to think of is the fat doorposts. I seem to get stuck on the doorposts, almost every time I back out of the tunnels (I think they are in all tunnels).

Other than that -- I don't see it's possible to change much, without affecting the gameplay... ell... I'm not even sure about the doorposts...

It'll be interesting to try Larky's rebuild, though.


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